Tuesday, March 04, 2008

Links to my "Orthodoxy's right-ward turn affects all" series

posted by Shira Salamone at 6:17 PM

8 Comments:

Blogger katrina said...

Shira, I don't know what to say. I think it's really bad, but every time I hear about these things I just shake my head. The problem is so systemic that I don't know how it can be reversed. If every generation insists on being frummer than the last, and if the same va'ad (rabbinic committee) controls the schools, yeshivot, shiduchim (marriage matches), kashrut certifications (which includes catering companies and food stores used by the non-Orthodox), then the situation will just keep getting worse. Regarding the Israeli situation it is easy to shake one's head and say the problem is created by government support of the yeshivot and mass military exemptions, but here in the USA the problem is mostly caused by religious freedom, which is not in itself a bad thing, of course. Of course I think that the American modern Orthodox rabbinate should fight tooth and nail against this, but with the whole Jewish community shrinking more and more in this digital age, they are afraid of the Israeli rabbis and their condemnations, which will be printed in the English editions of the same newspapers the charedim read in Israel. Some more regulation by the US government of the aspects of the charedi community they can control (e.g. what must be taught in secondary school) would be good, too, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Wed Mar 05, 12:01:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem is that the Orthodox Rabbinate is winning in the marketplace of ideas. You want the MO Rabbinate to fight this nonsense (I do as well), but unless the MO Rabbinate is backed by a massive number of serious, Shomer Mitzvot, and financially contributing people, they can't, even if they want to. As long as the MO Community refers to the Charedi community as "Ultra Orthodox" or "More Religious," then the MO Rabbinate has no legitimate way to fight them.

I.e. If the MO and Conservative-Observant (assuming there are sufficient numbers there) consider Charedi Judaism "more religious," then they have yielded the moral high ground. Only by asserting themselves as correct to they have the ability to strand their ground and fight.

The Reform movement stands their ground and fights. If the American Reform movement picked up 1 million Reform Jews and moved to Israel and voted a Reform Jewish Party in place, want to see how fast the laws would change? The face is, the Reform movement claims the most members, but has the least followers. If the Charedi leadership says "Do X," a whole lot of people in furry hats will "Do X," if the MO leadership says "Do Y," and much smaller number of people will "Do Y," and if the Conservative/Reform movement say "Do Z," maybe 100 people will do it. That's why the Charedi leadership is powerful, the MO less so, and the Heterodox leadership irrelevant.

SInce the Charedi power comes from being more and more bizarre, the stranger they are, the more power they get, expect the rightward shift. They don't care that they push marginal people out of the Orthodox camp with their nonsense, they only care about growing their followers. If you want to stop them, you need to make their power shrink by being bizarre.

Honestly, to do so, the Conservative/MO community need to focus on creating movements of more observant people. Observant MO Jews would strength the MO leadership, because they'd have people to lead.

Wed Mar 05, 02:14:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Ezzie said...

I'm not going to disagree with any of the problems from a communal standpoint. I'm actually preparing a somewhat similar pair of posts that I think you'll appreciate.

FWIW, Carlebach music was not allowed in most yeshivos back in the day.

Wed Mar 05, 06:05:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"If every generation insists on being frummer than the last, and if the same va'ad (rabbinic committee) controls the schools, yeshivot, shiduchim (marriage matches), kashrut certifications (which includes catering companies and food stores used by the non-Orthodox), then the situation will just keep getting worse." I may not be the most knowledgeable person to comment on this, not being from the Orthodox community, but there has been some recent mention on an Orthodox blog about the radical reduction in the authority of the Mara D'Atra ("Master of the Place"?), the local congregational rabbi. First, the local Rosh Yeshiva (head of a Jewish day school) superseded the congregational rabbi's authority, then, because of the ease and speed of communication and travel, the posek (rabbi qualified to give a ruling on Jewish law that is binding on the person who requests it) or even a Gadol HaDor ("Great One of the Generation") superseded even the Rosh Yeshiva. So the local congregational rabbi, who's the most likely to understand the situation on the local and/or individual level, may now be the person whose halachic opinion is least likely to be requested.

(Ezzie, if this is what you had in mind to blog about, I'll be very interested in reading what you have to say.)

"Some more regulation by the US government of the aspects of the charedi community they can control (e.g. what must be taught in secondary school) would be good," It absolutely freaks me out that it's legal in the U.S. for a school that doesn't accept government funding to ignore local laws concerning basic curriculum requirements. I've heard of New York State elementary schools that teach children to read Yiddish but not English, out-of-New-York-state high schools that teach *no* secular studies whatsoever (there are probably some in NY, as well), and some schools that don't meet New York State requirements, such that graduates aren't eligible for a high school diploma. How on earth this can possibly *not* be considered a form of child neglect is beyond my comprehension. How this could not be a violation of *Jewish* law, as well, is also beyond my comprehension--doesn't the Talmud require a father to teach his son a trade?

Wed Mar 05, 10:36:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"As long as the MO Community refers to the Charedi community as "Ultra Orthodox" or "More Religious," then the MO Rabbinate has no legitimate way to fight them . . . They [the chareidim] don't care that they push marginal people out of the Orthodox camp with their nonsense, they only care about growing their followers." Oy. I think you're probably right on both points, Alex.

Wed Mar 05, 10:39:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Ezzie, you said, "Carlebach music was not allowed in most yeshivos back in the day." Commenter open the gates said something similar in the comments on the "Fun banned" post. I admit that I'm a bit surprised (unpleasantly). I really had no idea. Maybe that's because, as a Conservative Jew, I'm, by definition, a target of Jewish musicians who use their music as a kiruv (an attempt to encourage observance) tool. So I wouldn't necessarily be aware that music used for kiruv purposes is not always as well accepted by those, um, not thought to be in need of kiruv.

I'm looking forward to reading your posts.

Wed Mar 05, 10:50:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Batya said...

Carlebach was persona non grata, because he couldn't keep his hands/lips off of the females. In the days when we knew nothing and most of the members of Orthodox shuls weren't religious, it "didn't matter." His shows still added more yiddishkeit than we knew. But in stronger Orthodox centers, he was a danger.
ps He kissed males, too. He kissed everyone he could.

Thu Mar 13, 09:26:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

I have heard those rumors for years. It's really too bad that he tainted his own reputation in that manner. I can only hope that time has helped heal the wounds of those with whom he acted inappropriately.

Thu Mar 13, 08:50:00 PM 2008  

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